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--url https://be.datagol.ai/noCo/api/v2/workspaces/{workspace_id}/extraction/{extraction_id}/{element_type}/{element_id}/run \
--header 'Content-Type: application/json' \
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"raw_transcript": "[00:00:02] Iris ten Teije: Yeah,\n[00:00:02] Alexander Sainty: good.\n[00:00:04] Iris ten Teije: Busy, lots of so, just as a bit of background. So, Noam and I just started working together this month, so very fresh in this new venture. So, at the moment, our focus has mostly been on just talking to lots of potential users, doing user interviews. Good thing is, within the vibe coding space, people are really enthusiastic, so it's been pretty easy to get people to jump on calls. But yeah, that means that we've had... a lot of conversations. Do you want us to get a couple of quick intro, Alexander Sainty?\n[00:00:38] Alexander Sainty: Sure, however you want to run the call.\n[00:00:40] Iris ten Teije: Sure, yeah, just as a bit of background, personally on myself, been in startups for the past 10 years, started my career in fintech, was the first employee at a digital bank that was based out of Hong Kong, helped the founders grow that company, scale it, and ultimately we sold that company. And then I started a startup here in London, originally within the FinSec and investment space. So what we built was an investment app focused on collectibles. So letting retail investors buy fractional shares and collectibles. I raised some money for that, but didn't quite go according to plan. So we pivoted. And then the last company was a SaaS company, customer support platform, focused on community driven companies, so companies of large online communities. We had a lot of clients in the crypto space, some in gaming, some in AI. Sold that a couple of months ago, took some time off, and now sort of going again. And as I mentioned to you on LinkedIn, we're still very early. So mostly reached out to you just because I wanted to share a bit of what we're working on and kind of going through our thoughts and more to get your feedback. Not really raising yet, but I thought you're a good person to speak to also because I saw you summarizing quite a lot of content about Lovable. probably been thinking quite a bit about this 5 coding space so I wanted to ask you some questions, share some thoughts. But yeah, I'll let Noam do a quick intro as well. Yeah, so hi, I'm Noam. My background is in engineering and so I've been doing that for almost the past 20 years. I was a founding engineer in a dev tool company called Jfrog, pretty big right now in the Bay Area. And I was also a very early engineer in the VanMoof bike company out of Amsterdam and another health tech company called I'm Gael and this is my second venture. So I've started my first one in 2022 around digital product design using generative AI, so essentially attacking Figma. And this is my new venture together with Iris.\n[00:02:46] Alexander Sainty: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm Alexander Sainty. Wear a couple of hats. Most recently I've raised what's called a solo GP fund. so i have six million under management um investing across uh europe and north america primarily but um not geographically constrained i'm a generalist uh invest in everything and anything um tending to lean towards um hard tech and deep tech now um uh partly because of our friends at lovable um and um and then been angel investing before the fund uh since My first investment was an AI company, so I've been in the space for a while. And then I started a company which I just shut down, but I ran it for nine years, which was sort of a consultancy and our whole purpose was making connections. So we basically acted as an intermediary between startups and corporates and helped them get to sort of end decision makers. so that they could sell their products. And just launched a new company, which I won't bore you with. But yeah, very exciting. So I think I can confidently say that I have incredible empathy for the founder, having bootstrapped the business for nine years. Yeah, anyway, that's me. But yeah, from Lovable's perspective, I was the first investor. can't say how or why, massively lucky, don't know anything about anything and that's kind of my starting point with all investing. So I'm not sure whether I'm going to be particularly helpful other than I bring a sense of childlike wonder to most calls. But well done guys, I mean it sounds like you both had, you know, respectively very interesting and life-affirming and probably extremely\n[00:05:00] Iris ten Teije: uh educative experiences thank you uh i'm actually i angel investors one and so if there's any time i'd love to hear about like the new thing you're you're doing oh thanks um i i 10 out of 10 would not recommend investing but\n[00:05:16] Alexander Sainty: um no basically i i just to keep it very short um fundraising is is fucking stupid and is a huge waste of time. The incumbent financial advisories, Lazars, GP Bullhound, Hulahan, Loki, all these kind of guys have built businesses over a century predicated on this concept of buying network. But the network isn't at all interested in what the intermediaries are selling. And so they've kind of spun a lie. And the people who are the sort of victims are the kind of founders who need it most, who typically are the worst at fundraising. my view is that fundraising advisory should fulfill a role which is basically to take over the fundraiser um and so what we do is we've built a system that uh allows us to basically virtually clone the founder um so for the duration of the fundraise everything that is online is us uh so all questions that are asked we're answering all materials that are requested we're creating all scheduling organization optimization funneling network building uh investor introduction triaging That's all us. Oh, material creation, that's us as well. The founder just does the meetings. So, you know, we just ran a series B, did 71 messages, got 71\n\n[00:06:33] Alexander Sainty: responses, 58 into the data room in two weeks. And that's our ability, basically. And I've spent 10 years fundraising for companies. It's a very logical place to go. But it's AI-enabled services, I'd like to be.\n[00:06:47] Iris ten Teije: Sweet. Sounds good.\n[00:06:49] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. Cool. Go, guys.\n[00:06:51] Iris ten Teije: Yeah. So, yeah, so let's take you through what we've been working on. So I'm not sure you like your affinity, if you're like a more product guy, more vision guy, but I can take you through either of those, like through our journey.\n[00:07:04] Alexander Sainty: I'm a people guy. But I'm curious. I'm a people guy. Okay.\n[00:07:12] Iris ten Teije: So we're great people. Sure. So maybe I'll start out like with a big idea. that we're following. It's no secret, you know, that there's an inflection point right now with AI. Now I'm not giving any news here. We're focusing specifically on the side of engineering, software engineering. And so while a lot of companies are racing to just take the new alien level capabilities of writing code and adding it to the existing value network, the existing way of developing software, such as in Loverbill, right? So Loverbill are basically... addressing the non-consumers, making them consumers, but also tapping into the more curious engineers and so forth and accelerating them. And this is great and they're printing money, so I'm happy for them. But what we're thinking of a bit forward is actually how does it change the way we make software? And so our thesis is that actually this new... capability changes how we should think about software and the way of moving away from apps to something which is more ephemeral, right? Because if everyone has the ability to create an app, right, it doesn't really make sense that everyone creates apps every two days, yeah? And what we imagine is more a world where it's more fluid, less defined, but really it's empowered by the capabilities of the machine to create. And so we're calling it software that you can summon. And so we believe that there will be a growing chunk of software that will no longer justify entire teams and entire companies. You will just have this ephemeral platform where you will be able to create something or ask for something and it will be materialized for you. And you can use it for as long as you want. It will adapt to your needs. Or you can tell it to go away if you don't want it anymore and so forth. Quite a few people are talking about it today, like with disposable software, ambient software, manual software and so forth. So we started this company because we really like this vision, we like this idea, and we want to be a part of making that happen. Because like I said, AI capabilities are somewhere here and so like the tip of the iceberg, still very early. But all the rest of the ecosystem of creating software is somewhere on this level. So there's sort of like an ecosystem like a mismatch, if you will. And so to enable this kind of fluid software, things need to change. Things need to change in our tools, in our infrastructure, and the way we approach how software is being built. And so this can't happen on the existing ecosystem. So far, so good.\n[00:10:02] Alexander Sainty: I think so. Can you give me a real-life use case?\n[00:10:07] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, so I think the perfect example for this is really all the small app building that people are doing today for their own use. So a big chunk of, let's say, Loverbill users are people who need some form of software in their life. They don't have the capabilities to build it properly as a hobby like an engineer. They don't have the money to hire an engineer. and they don't want to wait around for a company and pay them like $20 a month in order to consume that software. So they create their own personal thing. And we have heard a lot of interesting stories, right? Some of them are like gardening things, which are a bit more banal, but some of them is like co-parenting apps and things like that. And so I think this is like the canary use case, right? Where it's almost software that it's sort of like day-to-day, almost routine, right? but it's commoditized. And we've been through those types of software so many times that we literally have patterns for just minus a few tweaks. And so this would be the starting point. But I think as history has shown, you have this growing layer of abstraction. And so more and more software like that will become prevalent beyond just my own personal use, but things which are today commonplace apps that you install on your phone. I hope it clarifies it.\n[00:11:28] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. So you're a multi-modal platform builder, prompt-based engineering startup,\n[00:11:38] Iris ten Teije: basically? No. So that's the vision. And now our first avenue to attack this is not to say, here's another coding agent or here's another building platform, because there's enough of those, right? And as I said, in our vision, the thinking is, the problem is fundamental. The problem is that we don't have the tools or the infer to even support this idea right now, because everything is app and everything is still based on like principles of CI CD from 15 years ago. Right. And so how we're looking to attack it is actually from the bottom up. Right. So to change how people build software today that can also enable this. And so So there's kind of like a two-pronged thing. One is to say there is... a new type of person, right? Today, it's a vibe coders. We call them software creators, right? And essentially, those people right now are being underserved. Why underserved? Because except for the coding agent and except for the platform like Lovable, everything else in the ecosystem is designed for\n\n[00:12:42] Iris ten Teije: engineers, engineering teams, Fortune 500 companies, and so forth. And so you see people struggle with, you know, I hate Superbase. I don't know how to secure my thing. I'm afraid to take it to deployment, and so forth. right? This is, you know, this is the tool is being unsuitable for the needs of the person. And so if you take the, if you take this assumption where, you know, you need something which is not, let's say, Git plus AI or Versa plus AI, but you need something different, then you can say, okay, how can I serve this type of person better, right? With these new ideas with more relevant tools, more convenient, easier to use, easier to understand. on a higher abstraction. And the second part of this is, can we create those tools for those new people, which we assume will also change how people work in the future? Like, you imagine a person right now in high school who's learning how to program, you're not going to program like I did, right? You're going to program a lot differently. And so can we create these new tools while changing the status quo of how software is being built to materialize the vision of the fluid software?\n[00:13:55] Alexander Sainty: Okay, so you're actually building the new coding interface that will enable this paradigm shift.\n[00:14:03] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, so we're talking about this, right? And there's a lot of things involved here because the infrastructure and the way we create all this is huge. It's an immense task, right? And so where do you start? So our starting assumption was trying to find the pain points that people have today, not in a reactive way by saying like, What do they need right now, which is about a business proposition, but I think it's not really fitting our strategy. But more, what do we take for granted, which could be better, right? And could be different and serve other niches. And so our starting point was trying to ask something like Git and GitHub, right? Getting GitHub pretty big, like I said, serving developers. Still not the... easiest user-friendly kind of interface, very optimized for engineers. What if GitHub could feel like... Google Docs plus iCloud in terms of ease of use and convenience, right? Or what if this type of system could bundle in more things for convenience? We hear a lot of users complain, you know, I can't, you know, my project has become so big and now I want to prompt for a change. But there's so many details I have to include into the prompt so it doesn't fuck anything up that I'm not really sure like what to do, right? Because, you know, maybe I get like unintended side effects or maybe it won't understand me properly. But you can imagine a smarter system, right, where you have the code, you know what it looks like. Yeah. And analyze it better, you know everything about it, so you can provide more intelligence over it. So you could sort of ask yourself, like, what if GitHub right now took all the code it had, but analyzed it as though it was an ID, right? And what intelligence can you give to it? What convenience can you give being that?\n[00:15:54] Alexander Sainty: Interesting.\n[00:15:56] Iris ten Teije: Yeah. add and summarize. So, we want to build infrastructure for this new generation of software creators. And from what angle we're coming from or what's the exact starting point, that's still a little bit open. We've been talking to people like, okay, what are the pain points this persona faces? Aside from code generation, like let's leave code generation aside. So there's a couple of things, right? So collaboration, security. understanding what's going on, understanding their code base, understanding how do all of the different components of their app backend, how does everything work together. So we're looking to tackle those different areas. And the question is, where do we start? But ultimately, it can all be part of one product.\n[00:16:44] Alexander Sainty: So your client is a software creator,\n[00:16:46] Iris ten Teije: ultimately.\n[00:16:48] Alexander Sainty: And that client is somewhere between completely tourist. and not quite a professional software engineer. So that's the spread. Yeah. And let's just say for the case of argument, or the sake of argument, that they are a sole trader or either they're educating themselves or an upskilling or they're someone who has a need. Let's just say that that need is... probably commercial so they're a sole trader although you might have like co-parenting apps and you know um community get-together things and all this kind of stuff which are all sort of more more altruistic um uh then so your your your sort of icp is 17 to 50 um and could look like anyone from any geography um which is tricky, and then narrowing it back it's at what point of their journey are they finding things difficult or running into walls or facing... So for me, I mean, it's interesting, I am a lovable user and... And for me, it's always come back to data orchestration. That's the bit that's always difficult.\n[00:18:29] Iris ten Teije: Can you go into more details about that? I think I know what you mean, but I just want to make sure.\n[00:18:33] Alexander Sainty: I have a system of record, in my case, Atio. And it's about... If I'm creating a front end, which effectively every single app is, I need to sort out the back end. So, you know, Superbase or GitHub or whatever. it is. But actually that's not my problem. My problem is the data and how I'm efficiently piping data both ways. So it's sort of the hair on fire problem because, you know, I spend, if you look like the next generation of sort of, you know, systems of record, they're all trying to solve this problem, you know, but they're all gated communities. So, you know, Pipedrive doesn't integrate with\n[00:19:27] Iris ten Teije: Apollo. Stack One, they launched an\n\n[00:19:29] Iris ten Teije: interesting product yesterday, Disco.dev. It's specifically for AI agents to connect to data. I'll send it to you later. It's actually, and also they have it at Atio as well. But yeah, I get, yeah. And also for, to just go back to the original question around ICP. So from our conversation so far, it's mostly people like the solopreneurs who are serious about, you know, they want to actually get this. product that they're building into the world. Even the example of the co-parenting, the guy actually said, oh, I think this is like a hundred million dollar market size. And also what we're seeing with the, yeah, the conversations that we're having. It's actually most of these people. They are ex or current product managers and designers. And that's why they're like a little bit more serious and like more on the forefront of these new trends and they know how to use tools. So yeah, I do think we are able to sort of narrow down that target audience. And quite often what they do as well is they jump around between tools. So they use Lovable. This is a very common scenario. They use Lovable to start their... there. start their project, create a nice UI, set up the basics, and then at some point they might export the code, use cursor or cloud to make changes or do more complex stuff. Yeah, and so like our baseline ICP, we were saying it's not an engineer, so it needs help. Sorry, they need help. They are professionals, which means they have a means of payment. 16 year olds, sorry, let's talk in three years, right? And they've graduated away from somewhere like LogoBurrow, somewhere like Replit into something more robust like Cursor or Podcode. The reason for that is that there's a lot of handholding in the walled gardens, right? And so the need isn't that big in our case. And this past few weeks we've been interviewing a lot of people are trying to find cracks in this, right? So one crack we have found is we don't necessarily need to get them when they're already on the cursor, but rather than they are prepared to make the leap, for example, or they want to make the leap but they're worried about X number of things, right? Because we see a huge variance, right? Like I said, there's a commonality, right? Where like what was their profession to begin with? But there's also a huge variance in and how comfortable they feel, right? they feel once they learn something, the ownership that they feel after they learn it. Some people say, yeah, I've learned Git, but I'd happily give it up. I don't care. And some people say, I've learned Git and I don't need anything else. I'm fine with it. It's great now. And so this is like the, right now we're like mid hyper experimentation with the the minutiae of the ICP really.\n[00:22:23] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. It's such a tricky space because it's moving so fast. I mean, if you take Loverbill as an example, their view is build platform, don't make it perfect, make it a delightful experience, lean into hyperbole. to drive adoption and then retrospectively make it the best possible user experience. So you would have seen that they've just hired a CISO, for example. So now the next thing is solve security. Make it so that you don't even have to think about it. And then it will be, and you've already seen that they've now actually created effectively Superbase internally. So that they're removing dependency on other tools. I see a future where you basically have your, as I said, system of record, and you basically say connect to my system of record and you tell it what you say, I am a gardener and here is my list of clients, fill me up. And it'll just, you know, and it'll then say, have you thought about building this, this and this? Or have you, you know, would this help you? in your day-to-day. But that perfect synchronicity across your system of record and the application there is the thing that I think is driving most people to distraction. Because for me, I have to use one, two, three, three, three. So I have to do stack sync, Atio Superbase to get a front end to work. which could be solved with a post-SQL database or something, but I don't have the technical ability to do that. I think you're right. I think if you can hit the next generation of wherever it is that developers live, there's a great opportunity. but you're growing a dart at a moving target, which is super hard. And yeah, I'm also kind of trying to think about like when you actually start making money. I know that's not the most important thing. So I mean, the reason that I invested in Lovable was because Anton had distribution from day dot. He owned a repository called GitHub engineer. Sorry, And so when I spoke to him, he had 50,000 developers who were following him. That's why I invested. Plus, his story was incredibly consistent. He said, this will be the last software you ever buy. That was the first meeting and the first piece of paper I got given by him, which literally was a piece of paper, said the last software you'll ever buy. So he has been closely consistent in his vision, but he had that network and I think for me it's the thing that you guys need to articulate other than you know that you're both extremely bright and come from respectively entrepreneurial backgrounds where you've seen you know how difficult it is to build a business but you've also seen scale and you know you are both in kind of a modicum representative of your customer base. but ultimately the three questions are why you why this why now\n\n[00:26:29] Alexander Sainty: um that's that's it if you can if you can articulate that then everything else becomes easy um might say easy but then the other thing is is right to win so like you know where where anton has been because he's he's not you know he's not the messiah he he's he gets things wrong a lot um but where he's been absolutely brilliant more brilliant than probably any founder I've ever seen is in two regards. One is his ability to make bold claims, which then become fact. So his marketing genius. And then the other thing is his ability to attract and retain talent. And I think one of the things that other companies struggle with is that. how do you how do you beat someone who is getting you know for every single job post 10 000 applicants from literally the highest quality people you've ever seen i mean the the standard of excellence is bonkers and it's very difficult to win against a company that is attracting the most talented people globally so so i think the conversation is less now what are you building because software has become so fluid i mean i passed on the first round of stack one because i didn't see the point of yet another sat integration company couldn't have been more wrong right um because they've evolved and pivoted and iterated into um this new thing that you've just described iris uh the thing that's constant is that they were brilliant and i should have just been like you're brilliant um And so it's how do you communicate that, that you guys are exactly the right people to solve this problem. And you're creating this ecosystem and and pull to attract the talent that will mean that you will be able to deliver on a promise of whatever this is, because it's so abstract.\n[00:28:43] Iris ten Teije: It will get less abstract.\n[00:28:46] Alexander Sainty: I have no doubt. I mean, even even if you came out. of the gates and said, hey, look, we're building GitHub Mark 2. You know, that would be probably enough to put yourself on a path.\n[00:28:59] Iris ten Teije: This is like the initial claim. Sorry to interrupt you. The problem we have with this right now, or I personally have with this right now, is that, you know, rarely positioning yourself directly against like an incumbent works, right? And so you need to find like a bit more creative positioning for it to be more effective. So it's not a direct comparison, but, you know. how do you lean into the niches and the weaknesses which is like a focus of ours right now, right?\n[00:29:27] Alexander Sainty: To an extent, I agree and I disagree. I think actually now is a moment in history where you can position yourself against the incumbents because you know you can say things like, so like you know if you take like Xero in Finland who you know reinventing CRM, they were very confident in saying like Salesforce fucking sucks and they are. you know, on the decline, not the up, and we are going to take their business. That is totally legitimate, because we now exist in this paradigm where you suddenly, where technology is no longer a barrier. Now you can just build like-for-like functionality, you know, in a very short period of time, actually saying, hey, we're going to build, you know, GitHub 2.0. It's more about the articulation, you know, again, I don't want to fixate on Anton, but, you know, he is the closest proxy I have for what you guys are trying to do. And, you know, it was that, the last software you ever buy thing that was just constant. And, you know, he just said it. And I was like, oh, I get it. And so that finding that that hook, whatever it is, so that you can give at least someone a life raft, because I, it took me three, four goes before I was like, ah, I get what you guys are doing. And that storytelling arc is, as you all know, Iris, having done so many of these startups, it's the most important thing. Because it's the thing that attracts your customer. So yeah, what are you? I think it's the thing that you're trying to distill. But I like that you're building for the future, not the current status quo. That's cool. So what's useful? Sorry, I'm... whether or not any of this is being useful. Just a guy rambling on the other end.\n[00:31:23] Iris ten Teije: You're very useful and I think you have some very good insight on... what's happening you know currently and like the different forces of play so this is great um i think like first and foremost what comes to mind for me is like you know a bunch of interesting people right if you know anyone who you think this concept would interest not not in a way like to come work with us necessarily or to invest but in you know people who would enjoy talking about this we love an intro right the more you talk about it you know the easier it becomes to sort of crystallize. That is one thing, come and find anything. Yeah, and if there's anyone in your network that is very into vibe coding, it doesn't really matter what their job is. Yeah, I'd love to chat.\n[00:32:10] Alexander Sainty: Okay. So other founders, investors, yeah. I think it would actually be useful for you. There's a guy called Arlan who's, I don't know if you've read about him, he just turned 18 and moved to London from public town and raised from local globe in like a week. He's an interesting guy because he's right at the sort of blurred line of what is the next thing. And then another founder called Eno, who's building the security infrastructure for vibe coding. He might be quite interesting.\n[00:33:08] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, for sure. Because it could be someone\n\n[00:33:09] Iris ten Teije: we could partner with when we've got a product.\n[00:33:13] Alexander Sainty: Yeah, okay.\n[00:33:14] Iris ten Teije: So, it'll be super interesting intros. We'd really appreciate it. And also, with your email on our... We don't have a mailing list, but we have a list of people who are like...\n[00:33:24] Alexander Sainty: very interested which we can keep up to date then yeah there's a there's a couple of um there's a couple of of funds who would be worth talking with um uh i they've just rebranded so i can't remember that name but they're a turkish fund who almost entirely do dev tools they're very successful very successful um and uh they'll like this because this is exactly what they're kind of looking for um but they're a global investor. I just can't remember the name of the fund. And then, yeah, when you actually have something that you think you're confident about and is a direction of travel, because I think for me, I don't care what ultimately the product is, as long as there's a direction of travel, because every business I've ever invested in bears no resemblance to the business I invested in, apart from Lovable. I was literally the only one. Although even then, it's starting to change into something entirely new. So yeah, happy to stay in comms. If you send me just a short paragraph on both of you, I'm happy to send it out to founders. The problem is with founders is, as you know all too well, busy and can't guarantee that they're going to turn around and be like, yeah, I'd love to chat. Absolutely. So if you can make that message a little bit compelling, that would be very cool.\n[00:34:58] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, absolutely.\n[00:35:00] Alexander Sainty: Well, brilliant. Well done, guys. Into the unknown. Awesome. And I'm going to check out Stack One's new thing as well as I try and figure out my own problems.\n[00:35:11] Iris ten Teije: All right. Thanks so much for your time, Alexander Sainty. And stay in touch.\n[00:35:15] Alexander Sainty: Have a lovely weekend. Bye.\n"
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],
"whereClause": "1 = 1",
"selectAll": false
}
EOFTrigger an extraction run.
Method : POST
Auth Required: Yes (x-auth-token)
| Param | Type | Required | Description |
|---|---|---|---|
| extractOnlyNew | boolean | No | Default false |
| Field | Type | Required | Description |
|---|---|---|---|
| rows | array | No | Specific rows to extract |
| whereClause | string | No | Filter condition |
| selectAll | boolean | No | Select all rows flag |
The request supports a query parameter, extractOnlyNew, which controls record handling behavior. When extractOnlyNew is set to true, only new records are extracted, even if multiple records are selected. When set to false, the selected records are upserted, meaning existing records are updated and new records are inserted.
The extraction request supports processing either all rows or a specific set of rows. To extract all rows, the selectAll flag must be set to true, and the rows field must be omitted. In this mode, an optional whereClause may be provided to filter the data, and only rows matching the filter condition will be extracted. To extract specific rows, selectAll must be set to false, and the client must provide the complete row data in the rows field.
curl --request POST \
--url https://be.datagol.ai/noCo/api/v2/workspaces/{workspace_id}/extraction/{extraction_id}/{element_type}/{element_id}/run \
--header 'Content-Type: application/json' \
--data @- <<EOF
{
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"raw_transcript": "[00:00:02] Iris ten Teije: Yeah,\n[00:00:02] Alexander Sainty: good.\n[00:00:04] Iris ten Teije: Busy, lots of so, just as a bit of background. So, Noam and I just started working together this month, so very fresh in this new venture. So, at the moment, our focus has mostly been on just talking to lots of potential users, doing user interviews. Good thing is, within the vibe coding space, people are really enthusiastic, so it's been pretty easy to get people to jump on calls. But yeah, that means that we've had... a lot of conversations. Do you want us to get a couple of quick intro, Alexander Sainty?\n[00:00:38] Alexander Sainty: Sure, however you want to run the call.\n[00:00:40] Iris ten Teije: Sure, yeah, just as a bit of background, personally on myself, been in startups for the past 10 years, started my career in fintech, was the first employee at a digital bank that was based out of Hong Kong, helped the founders grow that company, scale it, and ultimately we sold that company. And then I started a startup here in London, originally within the FinSec and investment space. So what we built was an investment app focused on collectibles. So letting retail investors buy fractional shares and collectibles. I raised some money for that, but didn't quite go according to plan. So we pivoted. And then the last company was a SaaS company, customer support platform, focused on community driven companies, so companies of large online communities. We had a lot of clients in the crypto space, some in gaming, some in AI. Sold that a couple of months ago, took some time off, and now sort of going again. And as I mentioned to you on LinkedIn, we're still very early. So mostly reached out to you just because I wanted to share a bit of what we're working on and kind of going through our thoughts and more to get your feedback. Not really raising yet, but I thought you're a good person to speak to also because I saw you summarizing quite a lot of content about Lovable. probably been thinking quite a bit about this 5 coding space so I wanted to ask you some questions, share some thoughts. But yeah, I'll let Noam do a quick intro as well. Yeah, so hi, I'm Noam. My background is in engineering and so I've been doing that for almost the past 20 years. I was a founding engineer in a dev tool company called Jfrog, pretty big right now in the Bay Area. And I was also a very early engineer in the VanMoof bike company out of Amsterdam and another health tech company called I'm Gael and this is my second venture. So I've started my first one in 2022 around digital product design using generative AI, so essentially attacking Figma. And this is my new venture together with Iris.\n[00:02:46] Alexander Sainty: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm Alexander Sainty. Wear a couple of hats. Most recently I've raised what's called a solo GP fund. so i have six million under management um investing across uh europe and north america primarily but um not geographically constrained i'm a generalist uh invest in everything and anything um tending to lean towards um hard tech and deep tech now um uh partly because of our friends at lovable um and um and then been angel investing before the fund uh since My first investment was an AI company, so I've been in the space for a while. And then I started a company which I just shut down, but I ran it for nine years, which was sort of a consultancy and our whole purpose was making connections. So we basically acted as an intermediary between startups and corporates and helped them get to sort of end decision makers. so that they could sell their products. And just launched a new company, which I won't bore you with. But yeah, very exciting. So I think I can confidently say that I have incredible empathy for the founder, having bootstrapped the business for nine years. Yeah, anyway, that's me. But yeah, from Lovable's perspective, I was the first investor. can't say how or why, massively lucky, don't know anything about anything and that's kind of my starting point with all investing. So I'm not sure whether I'm going to be particularly helpful other than I bring a sense of childlike wonder to most calls. But well done guys, I mean it sounds like you both had, you know, respectively very interesting and life-affirming and probably extremely\n[00:05:00] Iris ten Teije: uh educative experiences thank you uh i'm actually i angel investors one and so if there's any time i'd love to hear about like the new thing you're you're doing oh thanks um i i 10 out of 10 would not recommend investing but\n[00:05:16] Alexander Sainty: um no basically i i just to keep it very short um fundraising is is fucking stupid and is a huge waste of time. The incumbent financial advisories, Lazars, GP Bullhound, Hulahan, Loki, all these kind of guys have built businesses over a century predicated on this concept of buying network. But the network isn't at all interested in what the intermediaries are selling. And so they've kind of spun a lie. And the people who are the sort of victims are the kind of founders who need it most, who typically are the worst at fundraising. my view is that fundraising advisory should fulfill a role which is basically to take over the fundraiser um and so what we do is we've built a system that uh allows us to basically virtually clone the founder um so for the duration of the fundraise everything that is online is us uh so all questions that are asked we're answering all materials that are requested we're creating all scheduling organization optimization funneling network building uh investor introduction triaging That's all us. Oh, material creation, that's us as well. The founder just does the meetings. So, you know, we just ran a series B, did 71 messages, got 71\n\n[00:06:33] Alexander Sainty: responses, 58 into the data room in two weeks. And that's our ability, basically. And I've spent 10 years fundraising for companies. It's a very logical place to go. But it's AI-enabled services, I'd like to be.\n[00:06:47] Iris ten Teije: Sweet. Sounds good.\n[00:06:49] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. Cool. Go, guys.\n[00:06:51] Iris ten Teije: Yeah. So, yeah, so let's take you through what we've been working on. So I'm not sure you like your affinity, if you're like a more product guy, more vision guy, but I can take you through either of those, like through our journey.\n[00:07:04] Alexander Sainty: I'm a people guy. But I'm curious. I'm a people guy. Okay.\n[00:07:12] Iris ten Teije: So we're great people. Sure. So maybe I'll start out like with a big idea. that we're following. It's no secret, you know, that there's an inflection point right now with AI. Now I'm not giving any news here. We're focusing specifically on the side of engineering, software engineering. And so while a lot of companies are racing to just take the new alien level capabilities of writing code and adding it to the existing value network, the existing way of developing software, such as in Loverbill, right? So Loverbill are basically... addressing the non-consumers, making them consumers, but also tapping into the more curious engineers and so forth and accelerating them. And this is great and they're printing money, so I'm happy for them. But what we're thinking of a bit forward is actually how does it change the way we make software? And so our thesis is that actually this new... capability changes how we should think about software and the way of moving away from apps to something which is more ephemeral, right? Because if everyone has the ability to create an app, right, it doesn't really make sense that everyone creates apps every two days, yeah? And what we imagine is more a world where it's more fluid, less defined, but really it's empowered by the capabilities of the machine to create. And so we're calling it software that you can summon. And so we believe that there will be a growing chunk of software that will no longer justify entire teams and entire companies. You will just have this ephemeral platform where you will be able to create something or ask for something and it will be materialized for you. And you can use it for as long as you want. It will adapt to your needs. Or you can tell it to go away if you don't want it anymore and so forth. Quite a few people are talking about it today, like with disposable software, ambient software, manual software and so forth. So we started this company because we really like this vision, we like this idea, and we want to be a part of making that happen. Because like I said, AI capabilities are somewhere here and so like the tip of the iceberg, still very early. But all the rest of the ecosystem of creating software is somewhere on this level. So there's sort of like an ecosystem like a mismatch, if you will. And so to enable this kind of fluid software, things need to change. Things need to change in our tools, in our infrastructure, and the way we approach how software is being built. And so this can't happen on the existing ecosystem. So far, so good.\n[00:10:02] Alexander Sainty: I think so. Can you give me a real-life use case?\n[00:10:07] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, so I think the perfect example for this is really all the small app building that people are doing today for their own use. So a big chunk of, let's say, Loverbill users are people who need some form of software in their life. They don't have the capabilities to build it properly as a hobby like an engineer. They don't have the money to hire an engineer. and they don't want to wait around for a company and pay them like $20 a month in order to consume that software. So they create their own personal thing. And we have heard a lot of interesting stories, right? Some of them are like gardening things, which are a bit more banal, but some of them is like co-parenting apps and things like that. And so I think this is like the canary use case, right? Where it's almost software that it's sort of like day-to-day, almost routine, right? but it's commoditized. And we've been through those types of software so many times that we literally have patterns for just minus a few tweaks. And so this would be the starting point. But I think as history has shown, you have this growing layer of abstraction. And so more and more software like that will become prevalent beyond just my own personal use, but things which are today commonplace apps that you install on your phone. I hope it clarifies it.\n[00:11:28] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. So you're a multi-modal platform builder, prompt-based engineering startup,\n[00:11:38] Iris ten Teije: basically? No. So that's the vision. And now our first avenue to attack this is not to say, here's another coding agent or here's another building platform, because there's enough of those, right? And as I said, in our vision, the thinking is, the problem is fundamental. The problem is that we don't have the tools or the infer to even support this idea right now, because everything is app and everything is still based on like principles of CI CD from 15 years ago. Right. And so how we're looking to attack it is actually from the bottom up. Right. So to change how people build software today that can also enable this. And so So there's kind of like a two-pronged thing. One is to say there is... a new type of person, right? Today, it's a vibe coders. We call them software creators, right? And essentially, those people right now are being underserved. Why underserved? Because except for the coding agent and except for the platform like Lovable, everything else in the ecosystem is designed for\n\n[00:12:42] Iris ten Teije: engineers, engineering teams, Fortune 500 companies, and so forth. And so you see people struggle with, you know, I hate Superbase. I don't know how to secure my thing. I'm afraid to take it to deployment, and so forth. right? This is, you know, this is the tool is being unsuitable for the needs of the person. And so if you take the, if you take this assumption where, you know, you need something which is not, let's say, Git plus AI or Versa plus AI, but you need something different, then you can say, okay, how can I serve this type of person better, right? With these new ideas with more relevant tools, more convenient, easier to use, easier to understand. on a higher abstraction. And the second part of this is, can we create those tools for those new people, which we assume will also change how people work in the future? Like, you imagine a person right now in high school who's learning how to program, you're not going to program like I did, right? You're going to program a lot differently. And so can we create these new tools while changing the status quo of how software is being built to materialize the vision of the fluid software?\n[00:13:55] Alexander Sainty: Okay, so you're actually building the new coding interface that will enable this paradigm shift.\n[00:14:03] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, so we're talking about this, right? And there's a lot of things involved here because the infrastructure and the way we create all this is huge. It's an immense task, right? And so where do you start? So our starting assumption was trying to find the pain points that people have today, not in a reactive way by saying like, What do they need right now, which is about a business proposition, but I think it's not really fitting our strategy. But more, what do we take for granted, which could be better, right? And could be different and serve other niches. And so our starting point was trying to ask something like Git and GitHub, right? Getting GitHub pretty big, like I said, serving developers. Still not the... easiest user-friendly kind of interface, very optimized for engineers. What if GitHub could feel like... Google Docs plus iCloud in terms of ease of use and convenience, right? Or what if this type of system could bundle in more things for convenience? We hear a lot of users complain, you know, I can't, you know, my project has become so big and now I want to prompt for a change. But there's so many details I have to include into the prompt so it doesn't fuck anything up that I'm not really sure like what to do, right? Because, you know, maybe I get like unintended side effects or maybe it won't understand me properly. But you can imagine a smarter system, right, where you have the code, you know what it looks like. Yeah. And analyze it better, you know everything about it, so you can provide more intelligence over it. So you could sort of ask yourself, like, what if GitHub right now took all the code it had, but analyzed it as though it was an ID, right? And what intelligence can you give to it? What convenience can you give being that?\n[00:15:54] Alexander Sainty: Interesting.\n[00:15:56] Iris ten Teije: Yeah. add and summarize. So, we want to build infrastructure for this new generation of software creators. And from what angle we're coming from or what's the exact starting point, that's still a little bit open. We've been talking to people like, okay, what are the pain points this persona faces? Aside from code generation, like let's leave code generation aside. So there's a couple of things, right? So collaboration, security. understanding what's going on, understanding their code base, understanding how do all of the different components of their app backend, how does everything work together. So we're looking to tackle those different areas. And the question is, where do we start? But ultimately, it can all be part of one product.\n[00:16:44] Alexander Sainty: So your client is a software creator,\n[00:16:46] Iris ten Teije: ultimately.\n[00:16:48] Alexander Sainty: And that client is somewhere between completely tourist. and not quite a professional software engineer. So that's the spread. Yeah. And let's just say for the case of argument, or the sake of argument, that they are a sole trader or either they're educating themselves or an upskilling or they're someone who has a need. Let's just say that that need is... probably commercial so they're a sole trader although you might have like co-parenting apps and you know um community get-together things and all this kind of stuff which are all sort of more more altruistic um uh then so your your your sort of icp is 17 to 50 um and could look like anyone from any geography um which is tricky, and then narrowing it back it's at what point of their journey are they finding things difficult or running into walls or facing... So for me, I mean, it's interesting, I am a lovable user and... And for me, it's always come back to data orchestration. That's the bit that's always difficult.\n[00:18:29] Iris ten Teije: Can you go into more details about that? I think I know what you mean, but I just want to make sure.\n[00:18:33] Alexander Sainty: I have a system of record, in my case, Atio. And it's about... If I'm creating a front end, which effectively every single app is, I need to sort out the back end. So, you know, Superbase or GitHub or whatever. it is. But actually that's not my problem. My problem is the data and how I'm efficiently piping data both ways. So it's sort of the hair on fire problem because, you know, I spend, if you look like the next generation of sort of, you know, systems of record, they're all trying to solve this problem, you know, but they're all gated communities. So, you know, Pipedrive doesn't integrate with\n[00:19:27] Iris ten Teije: Apollo. Stack One, they launched an\n\n[00:19:29] Iris ten Teije: interesting product yesterday, Disco.dev. It's specifically for AI agents to connect to data. I'll send it to you later. It's actually, and also they have it at Atio as well. But yeah, I get, yeah. And also for, to just go back to the original question around ICP. So from our conversation so far, it's mostly people like the solopreneurs who are serious about, you know, they want to actually get this. product that they're building into the world. Even the example of the co-parenting, the guy actually said, oh, I think this is like a hundred million dollar market size. And also what we're seeing with the, yeah, the conversations that we're having. It's actually most of these people. They are ex or current product managers and designers. And that's why they're like a little bit more serious and like more on the forefront of these new trends and they know how to use tools. So yeah, I do think we are able to sort of narrow down that target audience. And quite often what they do as well is they jump around between tools. So they use Lovable. This is a very common scenario. They use Lovable to start their... there. start their project, create a nice UI, set up the basics, and then at some point they might export the code, use cursor or cloud to make changes or do more complex stuff. Yeah, and so like our baseline ICP, we were saying it's not an engineer, so it needs help. Sorry, they need help. They are professionals, which means they have a means of payment. 16 year olds, sorry, let's talk in three years, right? And they've graduated away from somewhere like LogoBurrow, somewhere like Replit into something more robust like Cursor or Podcode. The reason for that is that there's a lot of handholding in the walled gardens, right? And so the need isn't that big in our case. And this past few weeks we've been interviewing a lot of people are trying to find cracks in this, right? So one crack we have found is we don't necessarily need to get them when they're already on the cursor, but rather than they are prepared to make the leap, for example, or they want to make the leap but they're worried about X number of things, right? Because we see a huge variance, right? Like I said, there's a commonality, right? Where like what was their profession to begin with? But there's also a huge variance in and how comfortable they feel, right? they feel once they learn something, the ownership that they feel after they learn it. Some people say, yeah, I've learned Git, but I'd happily give it up. I don't care. And some people say, I've learned Git and I don't need anything else. I'm fine with it. It's great now. And so this is like the, right now we're like mid hyper experimentation with the the minutiae of the ICP really.\n[00:22:23] Alexander Sainty: Yeah. It's such a tricky space because it's moving so fast. I mean, if you take Loverbill as an example, their view is build platform, don't make it perfect, make it a delightful experience, lean into hyperbole. to drive adoption and then retrospectively make it the best possible user experience. So you would have seen that they've just hired a CISO, for example. So now the next thing is solve security. Make it so that you don't even have to think about it. And then it will be, and you've already seen that they've now actually created effectively Superbase internally. So that they're removing dependency on other tools. I see a future where you basically have your, as I said, system of record, and you basically say connect to my system of record and you tell it what you say, I am a gardener and here is my list of clients, fill me up. And it'll just, you know, and it'll then say, have you thought about building this, this and this? Or have you, you know, would this help you? in your day-to-day. But that perfect synchronicity across your system of record and the application there is the thing that I think is driving most people to distraction. Because for me, I have to use one, two, three, three, three. So I have to do stack sync, Atio Superbase to get a front end to work. which could be solved with a post-SQL database or something, but I don't have the technical ability to do that. I think you're right. I think if you can hit the next generation of wherever it is that developers live, there's a great opportunity. but you're growing a dart at a moving target, which is super hard. And yeah, I'm also kind of trying to think about like when you actually start making money. I know that's not the most important thing. So I mean, the reason that I invested in Lovable was because Anton had distribution from day dot. He owned a repository called GitHub engineer. Sorry, And so when I spoke to him, he had 50,000 developers who were following him. That's why I invested. Plus, his story was incredibly consistent. He said, this will be the last software you ever buy. That was the first meeting and the first piece of paper I got given by him, which literally was a piece of paper, said the last software you'll ever buy. So he has been closely consistent in his vision, but he had that network and I think for me it's the thing that you guys need to articulate other than you know that you're both extremely bright and come from respectively entrepreneurial backgrounds where you've seen you know how difficult it is to build a business but you've also seen scale and you know you are both in kind of a modicum representative of your customer base. but ultimately the three questions are why you why this why now\n\n[00:26:29] Alexander Sainty: um that's that's it if you can if you can articulate that then everything else becomes easy um might say easy but then the other thing is is right to win so like you know where where anton has been because he's he's not you know he's not the messiah he he's he gets things wrong a lot um but where he's been absolutely brilliant more brilliant than probably any founder I've ever seen is in two regards. One is his ability to make bold claims, which then become fact. So his marketing genius. And then the other thing is his ability to attract and retain talent. And I think one of the things that other companies struggle with is that. how do you how do you beat someone who is getting you know for every single job post 10 000 applicants from literally the highest quality people you've ever seen i mean the the standard of excellence is bonkers and it's very difficult to win against a company that is attracting the most talented people globally so so i think the conversation is less now what are you building because software has become so fluid i mean i passed on the first round of stack one because i didn't see the point of yet another sat integration company couldn't have been more wrong right um because they've evolved and pivoted and iterated into um this new thing that you've just described iris uh the thing that's constant is that they were brilliant and i should have just been like you're brilliant um And so it's how do you communicate that, that you guys are exactly the right people to solve this problem. And you're creating this ecosystem and and pull to attract the talent that will mean that you will be able to deliver on a promise of whatever this is, because it's so abstract.\n[00:28:43] Iris ten Teije: It will get less abstract.\n[00:28:46] Alexander Sainty: I have no doubt. I mean, even even if you came out. of the gates and said, hey, look, we're building GitHub Mark 2. You know, that would be probably enough to put yourself on a path.\n[00:28:59] Iris ten Teije: This is like the initial claim. Sorry to interrupt you. The problem we have with this right now, or I personally have with this right now, is that, you know, rarely positioning yourself directly against like an incumbent works, right? And so you need to find like a bit more creative positioning for it to be more effective. So it's not a direct comparison, but, you know. how do you lean into the niches and the weaknesses which is like a focus of ours right now, right?\n[00:29:27] Alexander Sainty: To an extent, I agree and I disagree. I think actually now is a moment in history where you can position yourself against the incumbents because you know you can say things like, so like you know if you take like Xero in Finland who you know reinventing CRM, they were very confident in saying like Salesforce fucking sucks and they are. you know, on the decline, not the up, and we are going to take their business. That is totally legitimate, because we now exist in this paradigm where you suddenly, where technology is no longer a barrier. Now you can just build like-for-like functionality, you know, in a very short period of time, actually saying, hey, we're going to build, you know, GitHub 2.0. It's more about the articulation, you know, again, I don't want to fixate on Anton, but, you know, he is the closest proxy I have for what you guys are trying to do. And, you know, it was that, the last software you ever buy thing that was just constant. And, you know, he just said it. And I was like, oh, I get it. And so that finding that that hook, whatever it is, so that you can give at least someone a life raft, because I, it took me three, four goes before I was like, ah, I get what you guys are doing. And that storytelling arc is, as you all know, Iris, having done so many of these startups, it's the most important thing. Because it's the thing that attracts your customer. So yeah, what are you? I think it's the thing that you're trying to distill. But I like that you're building for the future, not the current status quo. That's cool. So what's useful? Sorry, I'm... whether or not any of this is being useful. Just a guy rambling on the other end.\n[00:31:23] Iris ten Teije: You're very useful and I think you have some very good insight on... what's happening you know currently and like the different forces of play so this is great um i think like first and foremost what comes to mind for me is like you know a bunch of interesting people right if you know anyone who you think this concept would interest not not in a way like to come work with us necessarily or to invest but in you know people who would enjoy talking about this we love an intro right the more you talk about it you know the easier it becomes to sort of crystallize. That is one thing, come and find anything. Yeah, and if there's anyone in your network that is very into vibe coding, it doesn't really matter what their job is. Yeah, I'd love to chat.\n[00:32:10] Alexander Sainty: Okay. So other founders, investors, yeah. I think it would actually be useful for you. There's a guy called Arlan who's, I don't know if you've read about him, he just turned 18 and moved to London from public town and raised from local globe in like a week. He's an interesting guy because he's right at the sort of blurred line of what is the next thing. And then another founder called Eno, who's building the security infrastructure for vibe coding. He might be quite interesting.\n[00:33:08] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, for sure. Because it could be someone\n\n[00:33:09] Iris ten Teije: we could partner with when we've got a product.\n[00:33:13] Alexander Sainty: Yeah, okay.\n[00:33:14] Iris ten Teije: So, it'll be super interesting intros. We'd really appreciate it. And also, with your email on our... We don't have a mailing list, but we have a list of people who are like...\n[00:33:24] Alexander Sainty: very interested which we can keep up to date then yeah there's a there's a couple of um there's a couple of of funds who would be worth talking with um uh i they've just rebranded so i can't remember that name but they're a turkish fund who almost entirely do dev tools they're very successful very successful um and uh they'll like this because this is exactly what they're kind of looking for um but they're a global investor. I just can't remember the name of the fund. And then, yeah, when you actually have something that you think you're confident about and is a direction of travel, because I think for me, I don't care what ultimately the product is, as long as there's a direction of travel, because every business I've ever invested in bears no resemblance to the business I invested in, apart from Lovable. I was literally the only one. Although even then, it's starting to change into something entirely new. So yeah, happy to stay in comms. If you send me just a short paragraph on both of you, I'm happy to send it out to founders. The problem is with founders is, as you know all too well, busy and can't guarantee that they're going to turn around and be like, yeah, I'd love to chat. Absolutely. So if you can make that message a little bit compelling, that would be very cool.\n[00:34:58] Iris ten Teije: Yeah, absolutely.\n[00:35:00] Alexander Sainty: Well, brilliant. Well done, guys. Into the unknown. Awesome. And I'm going to check out Stack One's new thing as well as I try and figure out my own problems.\n[00:35:11] Iris ten Teije: All right. Thanks so much for your time, Alexander Sainty. And stay in touch.\n[00:35:15] Alexander Sainty: Have a lovely weekend. Bye.\n"
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